Elder Players' - Interlude Seven - RULES
I will be posting the e-mails regarding rules that I receive between the July game and the next D&D game, when they are appropriate for the whole group to read:
NEW "THROWING" and "GRAPPLING" RULES DISCUSSION
(from Chris) Another thing, I like to throw opponents. I would not consider these attacks grappling.
There is no rule on this type of attack. I would prefer to treat a throw as an unarmed attack. It really is just
another way to roleplay the effect of unarmed attacks and how a Monk can inflict more damage than a normal character.
This type of attack does not give me any benefits. It is just a way to describe how my attack would play out. Can
we treat my visual imagery of 'flinging opponents into walls and things as part of storytelling?
For instance, I now get two attacks. There are two goblins attacking me. The first one swings and misses. I take
advantage of his miss and use his momentum to (attack #1) crack his elbow and (attack #2) throw his sword arm into
the second goblin. If I miss both, nothing happens. If I miss the first one, the rules state I can change my attack
and try again to attack the first. The second goblin is not attacked. If I succeed, I roll damage and move on.
I gain no benefit and I believe this is much better than "I did 8 points to the first and 6 points to the
second." Thanks, Chris
(from Chris) Your "Slim Exception" paragraph is basically what I was referring to in my first
email. Here are a couple of examples of those instances where I gain no benefit from the action;
Smashing a guys head into a wall, column or another opponent. Taking advantage of a miss and using his momentum
to strike another opponent.
Now you have me thinking. Let's consider those instances where I want to move a target into something or over a
cliff, or what-have-you. I guess the question now is where do throws fall under? Unarmed Attack, Trip or Grappling?
I'm arguing that they don't fit any of them. The throw attack occurs, damage is done, it's over. There is not a
continuation of battle as in Grappling. Although, I could argue the Grappling position by adding another option
to the list of actions. In reading the trip rules, no damage is done. Unarmed Attack is close. However, I would
add an opposing 'throw' check, as in Grappling.
Unarmed Attack Option (A):
1) Roll Tohit
2) Roll Opposed Throw Check
3) If Attacker wins, Target is thrown 5 ft.
4) If an object is in the way, HTH damage is rolled.
5) If the defender wins, nothing happens.
Grappling Option (B):
1) Roll ToHit
2) Roll Opposed Grapple Check
3) If Attacker wins, you are now GRAPPLING, choose action:
1) Pin
2) Damage
3) Escape
4) Break Pin
5) THROW -If an object is in the way, HTH damage is rolled.
5) If the defender wins, nothing happens.
I like either approach. However, I feel strongly that we need an approach.
Thoughts? CS
(Response from Mark, DM) The throw action is very similar to a Bull Rush, in that it actually moves the target of the attack from where they wish to stand. For instance, a character could use the Bull Rush attack to move a target character of monster over the brink of a cliff...or into a raging river. Of course, with a Bull Rush, it is likely the Attacker would end up going off the cliff or into the river right along with the Defender.
I favor making a new attack category called "Throw" with its own rules, and its own attending Feats to improve it. The Throw option does not fit well into the "Grappling" rules...and I think an Attack of Opportunity must be provided for. Of course the Feat Improved Throw could negate this Attack of Opportunity....
(from Chris) On a slightly different topic, there are no feats related to grappling. The only feat that
applies to grappling is Weapon Focus. What do you say to adding a new feat called Improved Grappling? The benefits
could be:
1) No Attack of Opportunity when starting a grapple.
2) As a defender, if you win the opposed check, you have the option of engaging in a grapple when someone attempts
to grapple you. The attacker does NOT get to perform any grapple 'actions'.
3) No -4 tohit to do 'real' damage.
(Response from Mark, DM) This seems reasonable, though I took the last part out of point number 2, because it sounded kind of confusing. I cleared up the number of attacks issue that comes up when a "winning Defender" uses his/her option to engage a grapple.
1) No Attack of Opportunity when starting a grapple.
2) As a defender, if you win the opposed check, you have the option of engaging in a grapple when someone attempts to grapple you. Exercising this option burns one of your attacks for that round (it is not a free action).
3) No -4 tohit to do 'real' damage.
(from Chris) (Below are the suggestions given by Chris for a new rule regarding "Throws." The final version of how throws will work is presented beneath these suggestions, and on the "NEW RULES" page of the website...Mark)
The Throw:
1) Roll Tohit
2) Roll Opposed Throw Check, Str + Base Att + Size mod
3) If Attacker wins, Target is thrown 5 ft + Att-Def roll.
4) If an object is in the way, HTH damage is rolled.
5) If the defender wins, he has the option of engaging in a 'Grapple'. If the attacker has additional attacks,
he may attempt to Escape the Grapple.
Improved Throw Feat
1) No Attack of Opportunity when starting a grapple.
2) If someone tries to throw you and you win the roll, you may throw them.
(Response from Mark, DM) The following are the Throw attack and the Feat that will accompany this new rule.
The Throw:
1) Attacker moves into the space occupied by the Defender, thereby generating an Attack of Opportunity. If the
Attack of Opportunity results in a hit, the throw attempt fails.
2) If the Attack of Opportunity misses, then the Attacker rolls to-hit.
3) Roll Opposed Throw Check, Str + Base Att + Size mod (very similar to the Bull Rush and Grappling Checks).
4) If Attacker wins, Defender is thrown 5 ft + half the difference between the Attacker's and Defender's Throw checks.
5) If an object is in the way, Hand-to-Hand damage is rolled.
6) If the defender wins, he has the option of engaging the Attacker in a "Grapple." Exercising this
option burns one of the Defender's attacks for that round (it is not a free action). NOTE: If the attacker
has additional attacks, he may attempt to Escape the Grapple.
Improved Throw Feat
1) No Attack of Opportunity when starting a grapple.
2) If someone tries to throw you and you win the roll (as the Defender), you may throw them. Exercising this option burns one of your attacks for that round (it is not a free action).
If anyone has any questions about this new rule, please contact me about it.
Feel Free to Contact me at VoidPulp@aol.com